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 Post subject: Senji Ryakketsu Translation
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:18 am 
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I've been looking for at least a translated portion of the "Senji Ryakketsu" by Abe no Seimei. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Senji Ryakketsu Translation
Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:53 pm 
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Keetsune wrote:
I've been looking for at least a translated portion of the "Senji Ryakketsu" by Abe no Seimei. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!I am not aware of any portion of the Senji Ryakketsu translated in English (I'm assuming you are looking for an English translation, though I am not aware of it being translated in any other language anyway).

Why do you want to read it? What do you hope to learn? Is there a specific portion you are interested in reading?

I may consider translating some of it for private use, but that will result in a lot of work and I am unsure when I will have time to do it (assuming I decide to do it). Not only is the text old, but it will take further research to understand the method of divination to an appreciable degree (namely, rikujin chokusen 六壬式占 also known as rikujin shinka 六壬神課 and known in Chinese as Da Liu Ren 大六壬). I would look at the transcription of the Senji Ryakketsu from the old Taiwanese site that had it as well as images of a copy from the Kyoto University and any other resources I have on relevant subject matter. I'd also probably try to get a copy of Abe no Seimei sen Senji ryakketsu to onmyoudou 安倍晴明撰占事略決と陰陽道 loaned to me to get a thorough understanding, but it might not be necessary for a relatively shallow translation (that book is over 400 pages and I doubt it is an easy read).

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"Taking the Origin as such, one penetrates the origin of origins; Taking the Original State as such, one sees the heart-mind." - Yuiitsu Shintō Myōbō Yōshū
「元元入元初 本本任本心」
唯一神道名法要集


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 Post subject: Re: Senji Ryakketsu Translation
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:27 am 
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O-o I used to have a link to the text in kanji. i'll look for it and you can try to have it translated. (note: it may actually be in chinese, but we'll see0

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 Post subject: Re: Senji Ryakketsu Translation
Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:02 am 
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YoukaiAlchemist2 wrote:
O-o I used to have a link to the text in kanji. i'll look for it and you can try to have it translated. (note: it may actually be in chinese, but we'll see0 I believe you are referring to the transcription of the text from the Taiwanese site. That site is down unfortunately, but you can use the internet archive to access it . If it was a different site where you found it, then please share. And yes, it is in Chinese. But it should be noted that the original is in Chinese as well. This should come as no surprise as educated men back then in Japan would write in Chinese. If you are interested, you can check out the University of Kyoto's version .

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"Taking the Origin as such, one penetrates the origin of origins; Taking the Original State as such, one sees the heart-mind." - Yuiitsu Shintō Myōbō Yōshū
「元元入元初 本本任本心」
唯一神道名法要集


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 Post subject: Re: Senji Ryakketsu Translation
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:20 pm 
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I would also like to get alhold of that myself and I would love to study it and understand the whole thing I have a deep thirst for knowledge and this would satify me to see it translated and readable


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 Post subject: Re: Senji Ryakketsu Translation
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:52 pm 
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Very well. The more I think about it the more I think this would be an interesting project. I'd be willing to make a concerted effort if there is enough enthusiasm and/or demand for it.

I'll say a few things ahead of time though. I can't see this being any earlier than a "Christmas present" if I start soon. I'd have to devote some time everyday to study of onmyodo, translation, and study of other sources related to the subjects of the text. Also, I cannot guarantee the contents of the text will live up to hopes and expectations. This may be especially true if exposure to onmyodo hasn't gone much beyond popular media representations or folktales and dramatizations of the legend that is Abe no Seimei. The text is what it is though. Finally, since I cannot predict how difficult this endeavor will be for me, I cannot predict how long it will take or how completely I can treat the subject.

There are 36 sections to the text. Some sections are very short and some are rather long. There are about 13,000 words to translate. I predict this project would unfold in stages. Translation will probably run through several revisions, and so the first run might be rough. Also, appendices and footnotes will be used. Aside from translation there is the matter of making it practical. This aspect might lend itself to greater creativity, and certainly a lot of experimentation. I am not sure if I would include that with the translation or develop that later.

I am unsure how I would release a project like this. I would either make documents (like PDF or something) that I would upload for download or blog it. This also depends on how public I feel like making it. Respond in this thread addressing me or PM me if you are interested in my undertaking of this project.

If anyone else feels like they could take up this project, they can say so. If that's the case I may drop it if I feel they are more capable and more enthusiastic. You see, currently my main interests are Daoism (primarily philosophical, alchemical, magical (talismanic and incantational) and mystical), medieval Shinto, Koshinto ("ancient Shinto"), and Shinsendo ("Way of the Spirit Immortals", to put it simply you can think of it as an overtly Shinto-Daoist combinatory religion). This means I will want to devote more time to the study and practice of these things rather than Onmyodo. Even though there is overlap, the nature of my interests will detract me from the full on research into divination that would make translation and interpretation of the Senji Ryakketsu faster.

I'll continue on with my business as usual until I see enough interest. Granted, continuing on with my business will help prepare me if I decide to take up this project sooner rather than later.

_________________
"Taking the Origin as such, one penetrates the origin of origins; Taking the Original State as such, one sees the heart-mind." - Yuiitsu Shintō Myōbō Yōshū
「元元入元初 本本任本心」
唯一神道名法要集


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 Post subject: Re: Senji Ryakketsu Translation
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:49 am 
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Location: Kuzunoha Inari-Jinja, Izumi
If I could read Chinese, I would offer to help, but I can't. I'd appreciate any effort you make, Zhenwu, if enough people show interest in it. Good luck with your own study. ^^

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 Post subject: Re: Senji Ryakketsu Translation
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:07 pm 
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O.o i can't read Chinese, and my Japanese isn't very good (I may be able to locate a version in Japanese) o.o I could read it if it was all in Hirigana but i don't think such a version exists. and even then i wouldn't be able to understand it, just pronounce it.

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 Post subject: Re: Senji Ryakketsu Translation
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:02 pm 
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Yamazaki wrote:
If I could read Chinese, I would offer to help, but I can't. I'd appreciate any effort you make, Zhenwu, if enough people show interest in it. Good luck with your own study. ^^Thanks for the encouragement :) I hope your studies and any other activities go well too. I'm really behind in where I want to be... Gotta figure out how to tackle things more effectively and efficiently :ugeek:

YoukaiAlchemist2 wrote:
O.o i can't read Chinese, and my Japanese isn't very good (I may be able to locate a version in Japanese) o.o I could read it if it was all in Hirigana but i don't think such a version exists. and even then i wouldn't be able to understand it, just pronounce it.If you found a version translated into modern Japanese, then that would be helpful (I tried and failed, but I think the book Abe no Seimei Sen Senji Ryakketsu to Onmyoudou has a modern translation or at least enough annotation and commentary to make it more readable. If I undertake this I may get that loaned to me. If it was in all hiragana it would be very difficult to understand the meaning :| Also, older Japanese texts such as the Senji Ryakketsu are not that easy to understand unless you are good at Japanese and Chinese and ambitious or amazing at Japanese and Chinese both modern and classical. There are probably two main reasons for this. First is that it will be written completely in Chinese if it was written by a man (later scholars may then annotate the text with katakana). Indeed, it will be Classical Chinese and may have manyougana (kanji used to phonetically represent Japanese words). Though the classic novel Genji Monogatari was written in hiragana in the late Heian period (finished after Abe no Seimei's death), this is because the authorship is female. I am not sure when it became normal to write with kana, but I do know that the major language reforms started formulating after the Meiji restoration in the late 1800s. Second is that, of course, the Japanese is in an archaic form (granted Japanese hasn't changed as much through the centuries as, say, English has).

Here is an example from the first line of the first section of the Senji Ryakketsu:

Here is the original in all its glory,
常以月將加占時,視日辰陰陽

If you are to read it in Japanese you have to rearrange the sentence and annotate it like so into classical Japanese (the following is quoted from a book I have called 陰陽道の本 and I verified the reordering by looking at the Kyoto University text's annotation),

常ニ月将ヲ以ッテ占時ニ加へ日辰陰陽ヲ視ン
(ツネニゲッショウヲモッテセンジニクワへニッシンインヨウヲミン)

In romaji you'd pronounce it like "tsune ni gesshou wo motte senji ni kuwae nisshin inyou wo min" (note: the kana "kuwahe" is just how classical is written; you'd pronounce it "kuwae")

(Note: I thought this sounded familiar, and in fact I've heard a version of this line before. Funny enough Onmyouza 陰陽座 uses it on the track "Onmyouji" 陰陽師 off of their first album.)

In English I'd translate that as, "Always add to the time of divination according to the Lunar Generals and regard the yin and yang of the days of the Dragon."

The Lunar Generals indicate where the Sun is on the ecliptic, and the yin and yang days of the Dragon refers to the Dragon days of the sexagenary cycle of the Chinese calendrical system.

From this example you should see what one is up against when tackling a text like this. Now I am pretty sure I would need the Abe no Seimei Sen Senji Ryakketsu to Onmyoudou book loaned to me to get a good translation.

Again, I'd like to know who is actually interested in seeing the fruits of this project. I'd like to know the reasons for seeking a text like this. Speaking to me in PM may be preferable. After all, I don't want just one or two interested persons lose interest by the time I'm finally done. Not to mention that the contents may not live up to their expectations. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a little more feedback and interested parties before I undertake something like this. But it'll be fun either way; I'd probably do it eventually. In all honesty I may only be able to translate parts of the text, find another way to use what I can glean creatively, or learn about the original Chinese divinatory method and figure it out from there. A real translation may be beyond my reach for a few years until I have enough experience with classical Japanese and (more importantly) Chinese. Oh, and more knowledge of Chinese and Japanese astrology/astronomy and divination methods would help too :!:

A substitute project may be presentation of material from the Collected Works of the Golden Crow and the Jade Rabbit 金烏玉兎集, which is another onmyodo text. I actually have that translated into modern Japanese (though I lack the original text, sadly). There are other possible onmyodo related projects I could work on. Some creative and some more of the scholarly nature (i.e. translations of texts).

_________________
"Taking the Origin as such, one penetrates the origin of origins; Taking the Original State as such, one sees the heart-mind." - Yuiitsu Shintō Myōbō Yōshū
「元元入元初 本本任本心」
唯一神道名法要集


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 Post subject: Re: Senji Ryakketsu Translation
Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:16 am
Posts: 72
Location: i'm behind you!
http://openlibrary.org/b/OL20270501M/Ab ... %8Dd%C5%8D

O-o i found a copy of that book you mentioned on open library. apparently it used to be on amazon.com but they took it off because it wasn't selling well. anyways, maybe you can find it from here.


also great job on the translations so far.

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